Crypto Is a Scam. Use Cash. Film ICE.
This week, the ACLU's Rebecca Williams joins BJ Mendelson to talk about the do's and don'ts of filming ICE, using cash whenever possible, and why crypto currency is a scam. You're not going to want to miss it.
You know what a hero looks like?
I mean like, a real one. Someone you'd see and be able to process with your eyes.
This dude.
Not only does he provide food to his community working out of a soup kitchen, he's also part of Vecindarios901. A rapid response community effort to organize and inform the Memphis Latino community about the presence of ICE.
These are not normal times.
Our goal, as you know, is to help train 5% of Americans to be 1% better at protecting themselves from fascists and weirdos.
If we can turn you all into Hunter Demsters, we will.
If we can't, and you're at least mildly entertained and informed by us, that's fine too.
You take the wins where you can get them.
We are going to talk, a lot, about documentation when it comes to defending yourself from fascists and weirdos.
It's one of our most effective weapons.
And one question we're getting quite a bit is about how to film ICE.
We have some thoughts. Before we share them we have to say we're not attorneys. This is not legal advise. While we have done a lot of reading on the subject, we strongly advise you consult one and get familiar with the laws in your state and local jurisdiction before taking any action.
That said ...
This is not a a complete list of how, but it's where we're at:
-Every American going outside in 2025 should have a Passport card on them at all times. Period. Full Stop. You may need it to vote.
-If you have an attorney, write the attorney's number in marker on your arms.
-You can legally film ICE. Get as close as you can. They may ask you not to record them, but as long as you're not obstructing them, they can't stop you.
-Stay calm. Use a neutral tone. Say as little as possible.
-Make sure you bring a friend as a witness. Have them drive you if at all possible. Make sure someone knows where you are and what you're doing.
(They can, however, detain you for any reason, or no reason at all. Hence the Passport and the Attorney #. So, while you can legally record ICE, you have to do so at your own risk.)
-If you're going to film ICE, you should do so while masked because ICE agents are using the Mobile Foritfy app to scan people's faces.
-While filming ICE, focus on badges and the ICE and other federal agents. Not the person they're trying to kidnap. (Remember: Kidnapping, as generally defined, is taking someone against their will and depriving them of due process.)
-Do not provide the location of where you're filming in the event someone sees this video and wants to harass that person, or you, again.
-Talk to, and record, eye witnesses as soon as ICE leaves and then write down everything you heard, thought, and saw. If you feared for your safety, make sure to state that.
-Use a secondary phone that it is not, in any way, connected to your real identity because ICE and others are also using spyware that can access your phones. They can't legally take your phone, but that also won't stop them from taking your phone either.
-Make sure the biometric locks are turned off on that phone, that you used a long pin code, and if someone asks you what it is, you could say, "I forgot."
We're going to do a whole episode on this soon.
But we want to give a shout out to this week's guest, Rebecca Williams. Senior Strategist for the Privacy & Data Governance unit at the ACLU. We interviewed Rebecca while we were getting ready for the new season, and this interview put us on the path to this post today, and the upcoming episode.
We discussed in today's interview how to film ICE, or if you should, a presentation Rebecca offers called Burner Phone 101, and how crypto is a scam.
So, enough talk. Let's get to it.
-BJ
Show Notes
Stupid Sexy Privacy Show Notes For Season 1, Episode 13
Episode Title: Crypto Is a Scam. Use Cash. Film ICE.
Guest: Rebecca Williams, Senior Strategist for the Privacy & Data Governance unit at the American Civil Liberties Union
Episode Summary: This week, the ACLU's Rebecca Williams joins BJ Mendelson to talk about the do's and don'ts of filming ICE, using cash whenever possible, and why crypto currency is a scam. You're not going to want to miss it. Show notes and more can be found at StupidSexyPrivacy.com
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Stupid Sexy Privacy, Season 1, Episode 13
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SSP Intro For Season 1
Rosie: Welcome to another edition of Stupid Sexy Privacy.
Andrew: A podcast miniseries sponsored by our friends at DuckDuckGo.
Rosie: I’m your host, Rosie Tran.
You may have seen me on Rosie Tran Presents, which is now available on Amazon Prime.
Andrew: And I’m your co-producer, Andrew VanVoorhis. With us, as always, is Bonzo the Snow Monkey.
Bonzo: Monkey sound!
Rosie: I’m pretty sure that’s not what a Japanese Macaque sounds like.
Andrew: Oh it’s not. Not even close.
Rosie: Let’s hope there aren’t any zooologists listening.
Bonzo: Mystery sound!
Rosie: Ok. I’m ALSO pretty sure that’s not what a Snow Monkey sounds like.
*Clear hers throat*
Rosie: Over the course of this miniseries, we’re going to offer you short, actionable tips to protect your data, your privacy, and yourself from fascists and weirdos.
These tips were sourced by our fearless leader — he really hates when we call him that — BJ Mendelson.
Episodes 1 through 31 were written a couple of years ago.
But since a lot of that advice is still relevant, we thought it would be worth sharing again for those who missed it.
Andrew: And if you have heard these episodes before, you should know we’ve gone back and updated a bunch of them.
Even adding some brand new interviews and privacy tips along the way.
Rosie: That’s right. So before we get into today’s episode, make sure you visit StupidSexyPrivacy.com and subscribe to our newsletter.
Andrew: This way you can get updates on the show, and be the first to know when new episodes are released in 2026.
Rosie: And if you sign-up for the newsletter, you’ll also get a free pdf and mp3 copy of BJ and Amanda King’s new book, “How to Protect Yourself From Fascists & Weirdos.” All you have to do is visit StupidSexyPrivacy.com
Andrew: StupidSexyPrivacy.com
Rosie: That’s what I just said. StupidSexyPrivacy.com.
Andrew: I know, but repetition is the key to success. You know what else is?
Rosie: What?
Bonzo: Mystery sound!
Rosie: I’m really glad this show isn’t on YouTube, because they’d pull it down like, immediately.
Andrew: I know. Google sucks.
Rosie: And on that note, let’s get to today’s privacy tip!
Interview With Rebecca Williams, Senior Strategist at the American Civil Liberties Union
(Note to readers: This interview has been lightly edited for brevity and clarity.)
Rosie Tran: This week, we're joined by Rebecca Williams, a Senior Strategist at the American Civil Liberties Union. Rebecca works in the Privacy and Data Governance Unit. BJ and Rebecca cover a lot of different topics in this interview, including whether or not it's safe to film ICE agents.
If you're curious about what some of the do's and don'ts are, we encourage you to listen to this interview, and we'll link to a number of resources in today's show notes on how to record ICE properly.
Remember: Documentation is a key skill we need to develop as it’s one of the best ways to defeat fascists and weirdos. So we’re going to be talking about it a lot in the not too distant future.
Rebecca Williams, Digital Strategist at the ACLU: My name is Rebecca Williams. She, her pronouns. I'm the senior strategist at the American Civil Liberties Union.
BJ Mendelson, Co-Producer, Stupid Sexy Privacy: That was a role that is unique to you. Are you one of the first people to have that?
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, I should have said the unit. I'm not the senior strategist of the whole org. The Privacy and Data Governance Unit is about three years old.
We started off as two people, we're now five, but I'm the first person to inhabit this role.
BJ Mendelson: Yeah, that's awesome. I mean … I imagine now it's crazier than it was when you first started, but what's been that role like to have?
Rebecca Williams: Yeah … When I explain to people, I've done a lot of advocacy work. I've also done a lot of implementation work for the government throughout my career. This sort of combines both of those things in that I am trying to protect the privacy of our clients, supporters, donors, voters, anyone that interacts with ACLU. And as you can imagine, there's a heightened risk, scrutiny and attention to this in the current political climate.
BJ Mendelson: Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, I have a letter from the DOJ asking New York State for like a list of 22 different things. And one of the things they specifically asked for was a list of like every single registered voter. And New York State said, yeah, you can get that through FOIL. So I tested that and I put in the FOIL request and I was able to get all that information. But it was a little worrying how easily accessible like that database was of every registered voter.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, there's a lot of talk about commercial data brokers and government data brokers, but there's also a broader sort of uh nonprofit data broker industry that also relies on public voter data. And there's a lot of pros and cons to public voter data and states handle it differently, but it's something I've become intimately familiar with because we do interact with it as part of our advocacy work.
[Reader Note: BJ now has the full NYS Voter Registration database including emails, phone numbers, and mailing addresses of all voters. We’ll talk about this in a future episode.
BJ Mendelson: Now, there are three different topics I'm hoping I can ask you about. We probably won't get to everything, but I'll do my best and actually … Coincidentally, just the day that you and I were supposed to speak, I got an email from a local resident in the village of Monroe. And I just want to read it because I think it speaks to some of what we wanted to talk about.
And I won't read the whole thing in full, but just real quick, it says, hi, Mayor Dwyer. And for people that don't know, Neil Dwyer is the mayor of the village of Monroe. ah She says, early yesterday morning, I was informed that there was an ICE presence in the parking lot behind Village Hall.
My daughter and I drove there and discovered 10 people standing around, two of whom were women, the rest were men. Both women were masked, as were some of the men. They were carrying guns. I walked towards them, documenting the presence of my iPhone. A large male with a gun and a mask approached me and asked me if I was recording them, which unfortunately at the moment I was not. I feared he would take my phone. He then told me, incredibly, that he was here to protect the US and that we didn't need to be here before stepping back.
I was too terrified to respond, but in retrospect, I wish I had told them that my real protectors, on whom I rely, are the Monroe Police. Be that as it may, I am an 81-year-old woman. I felt threatened and frightened as did my daughter, who grew up here. You probably already know about the ICE presence in the village of Monroe. They have been spotted several times on North Main Street, at Dollar General, Park Avenue, Franklin Avenue, and along Stage Road and Lakes Road. I wanted to let you know what I saw and felt upon encountering them myself. I have attached a tiny video of the man who approached me.
He's wearing the ICE police vest. If you want more photos, I'd be happy to send them along. And just for context, for people, I'll have the video with this interview so people can see it. It's just a guy who looks like he fell out of any shopping mall in America, wearing an ICE vest. So you probably have been answering a lot of questions about what your rights are in terms of filming these things. And so I just want to talk to you a little bit about the letter and just your impressions and what we can learn from it.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, I mean, first of all, that's a very scary encounter for somebody to have. And it's a hard thing to really prepare for. Even if you listen to this podcast, like in the moment, it's really hard to make that calculus. Like, what are my rights? What do I do? Especially when you're surprised to see someone like that and you don't know what to do with your device. I think some of the things that we've talked about at the ACLU, have that not just protecting our supporters and clients and prospective clients, but also our attorneys. A lot of our attorneys are in these situations or crossing borders as well. And I think when you're thinking about these scenarios, the more you can think ahead, the better. So if you're listening to this podcast, you can think about yourself and also spread the good word. But it's always healthy to do what folks in the information security industry call risk modeling. You figure out like what's my situation, like what's the worst case scenario? Like what are, am I an undocumented immigrant? Do I have kids at home that I need to get home to? Do I have a bunch of ACLU attorney friends that can probably help me get out of jail if I needed to? Like we all are in different scenarios and you have to think about your scenario before you do anything.
I also think at the same time, one of the things that has helped out a lot of cases is having footage of things that are happening; and the fact that we have these mini cameras and videos in our pockets. You can also hold other things other than your phone, but if that's what you have on hand, it's really, really useful in coming up with evidence that can support people and support justice in the long term.
So I think some of my reactions to ‘how do you handle that situation’ or attending an ICE raid or attending a protest is you think about keeping yourself safe, keeping the people around you safe and like what those trade-offs are. One of the big things that's come up in ICE raids, I think a lot of folks that want to support immigrants that are… Or not even immigrants, random people that are being pulled by ICE agents ah is you're told to like go there and film what's happening. And I think that is true. But one of the things that we've been talking about is what happens when you also film somebody like a third party in the vicinity and that ends up being evidence that can be used against them. So you just have to be really mindful of everything that's happening in a very, heightened situation. And I think... Yeah, I think if this is something that you're very serious about, you should get trained on, and you should rely on people that are trained on it. Like you don't have to be a hero.
And you should really think about which devices and what scenarios you're in.
BJ Mendelson: Right, and so this, you know, I'm probably skipping ahead a little bit, but I know you're offering a class on burner phones, burner phone 101. We call them stranger danger phones. And so I wonder if this is a situation where you would want … not your phone. Like this was probably this person's iPhone, their personal device, but I wonder if this is one of those situations where you would want like that, that there's the burner phone and the stranger danger phone, whatever you want to call it, instead of this kind of incident.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, so you're right. I'm teaching a burner phone workshop at the Brooklyn Public Library, which is very exciting. A lot of the documentation about setting up a burner phone is like, go to your public library to set it up. So I was really excited that the library was happy to host this workshop as they've been encouraged to be the place to set one up. But the way I'm setting up that workshop is very much like a digital security training in disguise. Hopefully you bring a burner phone and we also do that. But it's really talking about the full landscape of what your options are. Like if you have your smartphone that you use every day, you could probably secure a little bit better than you already are and like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that full suite.
And then if you want a burner phone, like what do you want it for? Do you want it to go to an ICE raid one time?
Or do you want it for every protest and then what are you doing with it? Are you texting your friends at the protest? Or like, are you just thinking that you want to unplug more? Is it like a privacy thing? Let's parse actually like why you want a burner phone and how different burner phone setups won't get you or will get you what you want.
There's also the pretty good phone privacy like eSIM option if you're worried about location information. There's just a suite of what a burner phone might be. I also appreciate that you don't call it a burner phone, but burner phone 101 is the attractive term. For the mass audience. But yeah, what's the suite of options?
And if you really wanted something that's not traceable, you can't text your best friend from it. You become traceable very quickly. So you have to really think about what are you doing with it? And then the third option would be when should you bring no phone at all? Those scenarios might exist, but just eyes wide open. What are your options? And can you pick the scenarios? But also, again, the grain of salt is just … It's more about digital literacy and education as much as it is about planning because it's not realistic unless maybe you're in the industry to have 15 devices.
BJ Mendelson: Exactly. So the reason why we call it the stranger danger phone is if you're dating, right, you don't give them your real phone number. We recommend you get a dumb phone, pop in a SIM card and that's what you use. Right. So that's stranger danger phone.
I wonder, me, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but like one of the things we recommend, so we're kind of sneaking in the sense of it's about stupid, sexy privacy. But once we have people in, we're actually teaching them how to defend and fight against fascists and weirdos. Like that's our whole deal. One of the things we talk about is, you know, having a secure phone that's got graphene OS. That just has Signal. That is, you know, like we have a list of settings that we give people … And I wonder, have you encountered any situations where even with that extreme privacy, like using the Michael Bazzell term, you might still run a risk if you're at a protest or if you're at an ICE raid where they might still be able to get information off of it?
Rebecca Williams: Yeah. I mean, the perfect phone setup doesn't exist.
Yeah, I don't know. I'm hesitant to say it does. That would be my recommendation to have it as locked down as possible. I think the issue is, the more you lock yourself down, it's like when you have privacy settings on your web browsers, all of a sudden like your fingerprint actually, or yeah, like your web fingerprint, is it called fingerprint? Webprint? It becomes more noticeable because you're different. And then it's also just sort of like, protests and these events, you're not usually going alone as a spy and sometimes you'll go to a second location. It's great if you have it all locked down, but very quickly you can accidentally talk to a friend or go to a place you always go or do something else or be like, I'm just gonna log into the Google Drive real quick on browser because I had to. There's just something that always comes up and then all of a sudden you're attached to yourself again or … If you're just so locked down, you look like an anomaly and then someone can figure out where that locking down started … to speak in very vague terms.
But yeah, I think most phones are dangerous, but it's also like, it's just about … also in the spirit of just digital privacy across the board, some people are a little defeatist, like my info is already out there. I'm like, the more you lock down, the less it is. Just another data point that could be used against you or against a third party. Or if we're not talking about, you know, government or third party vigilante actors after you, like the less sort of like commercial information somebody has about you, it's worth reducing your footprint.
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Interview Resumed
BJ Mendelson: That's one of the things that I want to talk to you about was this movement towards digital identity and digital identification. Here in New York, you have a list that we'll link to where it says they do have an ID and there's no law. And I was hoping you might be able to talk a little bit about digital identity, just in a broader sense, because I feel like … It's definitely something everyone is talking about now. But for our audience, we're trying to appeal to people who realize there's a problem with fascists and weirdos that involves their digital footprint, but they may not understand what digital identity is and what it means in terms of like governing of their information.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, absolutely. Where to start with digital identity and where to end. So the way I would describe like why everyone's talking about digital identity now is the more our lives have become digital, the easier it is for folks to do identity fraud online. If you're not in person, you don't have all of these in-person ways to vet that I am who I say I am. And because that has become so fraught, we keep adding layers and layers of sort of like, how do we make sure it's you? And this has come up like across the board in sort of our presence on the internet. If you even think about the evolution of passwords to two factor, to multi factor, to pass keys, like it's all about sort of like, how do we prevent this fraudulent access on the internet? And then it also becomes tied to other types of access. So if you're applying to a government service, especially in the United States, all of our services are very means tested. So if you want to have any sort of healthcare, you have to go through all these steps to make sure it's you and no fraud is happening. But it's been happening across the board in our digital space.
Simultaneously, while ad tech is trying to track who you are through cookies and other activities to like make sure they're selling you the best thing that you might like the most. And then the surveillance state. So all these things are happening. It's all happening at once and it feels like there's this confluence of a variety of different issues of fraud online and ID online. And there's a lot of state and corporate actors that would love to know it's you doing every single thing to either prevent access or there's a huge thing with personalized pricing now to like give you a singular price. But there's so much incentive, there's so much money. Like public funding for law enforcement and corporate funding to really wanna make sure they know it's you doing something. And there's not a lot of space for people to unwind that clock because it's getting easier and easier to do fraud online. Including all the new emergent generative AI, spoofing of licenses and faces and all these things. So you see this battle between fraudsters, some playful, some not totally nefarious, or some people just trying to get around a paywall or something, and state and corporate actors that really want to track you online. Unfortunately, it doesn't… it can't end. To really make sure it's you, they're gonna have to collect more and more data because more of it's gonna be swoopable. So there's a lot of talk about how AI is breaking captures even now. Verifying your human on the internet is getting more challenging. So if you thought cookies were bad, they really wanna track all these things. I mentioned that if you have privacy settings on, it actually makes your… Impression on the internet, more knowable because not everyone has those on. So then that like you're trying to protect yourself but you've become more identifiable because not everyone has those on.
But it's all it's all happening.
There's like a big big I would describe failed rollout of age ID in the UK last week. But we're seeing all of these really harmful … The most generous term is like side effects, but I think these are like knowable effects. So I'm not sure that they're totally side. But all these issues were all of a sudden, you know, in the name of safety, in the name of security, folks can no longer have access to things like forums related to violence in Gaza or LGBTQ communities or all these sorts of things and you're starting to see what was the open web becoming very, very closed.
And that's just serveiling the internet for information. In terms of surveillance, it just gets really scary because it's not just, again, it's this confluence. It's not just your passkey, but they can scan your face and they attach that to who you are. There's this... ah. I don't know. Like the panopticon's really becoming more doable.
BJ Mendelson: It's scary. Honestly, you've probably been at this longer than I have. 've been researching privacy fields since about 2015. And yeah, like, you know, the panopticon … very much is a real thing. So, to that point in a situation … So let me back up.
The thing that we talk about, or we're going to talk about quite a bit at Stupid, Sexy Privacy is you can't count on the federal government for anything.
So if there's going to be change, it's going to happen on the state level.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah.
BJ Mendelson: So, in a case like New York, where there is no law governing this digital ID, what is something that people could do? Who can they talk to to alleviate that?
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, I think... I mean, I'm hopeful that New York City can craft some things eventually. I think there is a lot of energy and a new like new political energy in New York City that's happening. There's certainly a sense even from our governor that we don't want ICE to come in and do these things. So the tides might turn a bit on in terms of legislation. But I think what … What my institution, ACLU, often says is just like we have like many different plays in the playbook or like tools in the toolbox.
Like it's not just litigation, it's not just legislation, it's not just advocacy. There's organizing, there's all these other activities. And I do agree that the fights that are happening now or the ways to protect ourselves will be local.
I think they also will be formal and informal. So I think local legislation is a possibility, but I think there's a lot of different strategies. If you don't have a legal protection, you can work on some of the privacy tips that I said, obfuscation, it doesn't always work, but it can work. I think sort of having community, like knowing what your options are and making sure that you have a strategy that protects you.
I don't know …A diversified strategy would be my tip for always, especially right now.
BJ Mendelson: Absolutely. Let me ask you real quick about cash. So I noticed that one of the tips that you talked about in terms of this larger issue of digital identity is we must protect cash …
Rebecca Williams: Yeah.
BJ Mendelson … Which is something that we've already put up a privacy tip about and we're probably gonna hit home on a bunch of times. So I was wondering if you could speak a bit more about the importance of utilization of cash versus something like Apple Wallet.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, so in the Surveillance Resistance Lab Demand for Digital Identity, we talked about cash cards and clerks, so like the three Cs.
But they're all very much tied to digital identity or digital wallet like they're being replaced; And I think they're all being replaced. And I feel like the clerks part is also interesting just to have like human vetting and like protecting labor Against AI, like that's all happening at the same time. But it's like worth … Sometimes in in digital identity we get really into the weeds about like privacy preserving selective disclosure . Attributes and it's just sort of like actually, you know something bigger is happening here and we're shifting from a human, more anonymous, more of the time process to something that's highly datafied, highly reliant on computers and the powers that be. And that shift is not just in the physical ID, it's in the clerks, but the cash.
So the importance of cash is … There's many things going on with cash. But again, sort of like over the years, we've shifted to like cards and digital payment rather than physical cash. And at the same time, we have growing sort of crypto interests and also crypto relationships with very powerful government officials. And we can talk about crypto separately, but there's... By virtue of just passing cash, that is inherently more anonymous. That's not being tracked in your economic ledger that you went to that place. But also, there's just sort of … if you're using these fintech services or if you're using crypto services, there's this, I don't know, like … You can start imagining off-the-wall scenarios … but they could be true where someone just turns off your wallet so you can't use money anymore. There's all these things, you're being tracked, but also you're giving up a lot of agency in addition to the privacy tracking that's happening.
And I don't know, I even think about cash in terms of you pass a homeless person on the street and folks don't have cash so they can't give that up. It makes you a different community member when all of a sudden you're in this this PayPal world.
BJ Mendelson: Right. Yeah. And that's something we … that's something I've come around on because 10 years ago I was one of those people saying, you know what, if someone wants to give me money in exchange for my data, I'm all for it. But as I started to read more about privacy in a broader sense, you realize it's a community effort. Right. And you realize that you can't give up your data without in turn impacting other people either intentionally or unintentionally.
So there's really no arrangement where one-on-one, if I were to sell you my data, you're just getting my data. You're still going to get someone else's data. You're still going to get potentially pictures of other people, which could then be used to build a shadow profile on them.
So when you talk about being able to give cash to someone on the street that's homeless, there is a community aspect here that I think often gets lost when we talk about privacy.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah. That's it. Yeah, people talk a lot about sort of like the collective harms when it comes to genetic data. Like that's the perfect example. Like if you, I remember I was an early adopter of 23andme. I've deleted it before the sale. But my brother was so mad at me. This is like before I was in privacy. He was like, how could you do that? And I was like, what? I wanted to know. But like the genetic … and also by the way, you should be, we should have a world in which you get to know about yourself. Like the quantified self without giving yourself up to like these networks um of all sorts of actors, state, corporate, hackers. Like you should be able to get to know about yourself without these things happening. But yeah, the collective harms are across the board. And I feel like a lot of the relational and contextual aspects, like it's not just the social graphs.
A lot of the advocacy tools now. Like, one's called like, RepresentUs or something like that. It's like, get out the vote with me. Like you're supposed to text your friends, like vote this way. Or like part of it is like, very network based. [You] can like see the social graph. Like a lot of tools that are emerging lately are not just about you, they're about your network. And there's like a huge, a huge … You know, data market related to your network. But if you zelle someone on the street, which I've done because I didn't have cash, that person is like now somehow in my network and you can like learn something about me and that person and like it doesn't go away. And if it was cash, that just wouldn't happen.
BJ Mendelson: Exactly. And you know, with Crypto, our position is … it's a scam.
Rebecca Williams: Oh I don't I never know who I'm talking to with the privacy people. . Yeah, yeah.
BJ Mendelson: It's one of those things where the idea of it is exciting, Like the larger concept of, you can send money to anyone anywhere on the planet by doing this. And you could do it anonymously. This is an audio interview, so people can't see me doing the air quotes. But then you start to read into the technology and you're like, oh, well, wait a second, that doesn't do at all what it's advertised. And it really seems to be a Ponzi scheme for like super wealthy investors and government officials. And so that's our policy. I'm wondering if you feel the same.
Rebecca Williams: I definitely feel the same. I guess the only flourishes I have, which are not even they're not deep flourishes. But I'm like, it's a scam and it's like making the powerful more powerful. So it's just sort of like rich VC people sort of taking advantage of other folks. People that have taking advantage of people that don't. It’s just sort of like with the way the markets go, but it was in vogue for a while to try to sell Citicoin to certain mayors, like crypto for cities. And the local governments just like didn't even understand like what the issue was.
They seem to just be excited to have an influx of initial cash, which was promised as part of the onboarding, but was really trying to be an off-ramp for some of these pyramid schemes, Ponzi schemes. So it also takes advantage of our public institutions. In addition to people that think they're investing in something. It's really horrible.
BJ Mendelson: Yeah, no, I think it's well said. I hate to see people being taken advantage of and that's just what it looks like. And we're only gonna have a few minutes left, so I wanna get just to … What are some of the most frequently asked questions that you get. About Know Your Rights? Because I just wanted to go back to that, because there's a lot of people who, like I'm on an Indivisible Steering Committee, the audience for Super Sexy Privacy is, we're going to them first, we're going to all the local Indivisible groups.
So they're probably gonna all have these questions. I'm curious, like what's like the most asked question you get?
Rebecca Williams: I mean, there's a lot The know your rights versus like know your privacy or like know your data I think are like different questions. The know your rights is so fluid like jurisdiction to jurisdiction to a point where I'm just like, what state are you in? What airport? it gets really in the weeds really quickly and the Know Your Privacy, Know Your Data is actually a little bit more stable because people are usually using an Android or an iPhone; and we can talk about like turning off your phone and like what those options are.
Also like the Know Your Rights, some people aren't following the rights right now. So we might have consequences even like, so it's important to know sort of like your status in the US like citizens versus non-citizens have different rights. Different jurisdictions have different rules related to even scanning your biometric to like open your phone for something.
So I think the rights get specific, but you should … not official attorney advice, but … any advice that any attorney would give you is like say less and like request an attorney all the time. Like really, the less you say the better until you have representation. I think too, I make uh jokes at the expense of Mayor Eric Adams in New York City, like that he’s a privacy warrior in terms of devices and like really good example in that he was using Signal for all of his communications and he used a pin, a long pin and he said he forgot it. I don't remember the pin and they couldn't unlock his phone and all the evidence they have from his text is from other people's screenshots of his texts. Like he had a new iPhone that couldn't be opened. I don't know. I think it's a funny example because you don't want corruption in your government, but it's sort of like, uh what did Eric Adams do?
BJ Mendelson: A lot.
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, yeah. He did a lot. He did a lot. Yeah but he also locked down his phone and didn't say anything and said he couldn't remember his password. And that was one option for folks in search scenario.
There's also just like a lot of little things that you learn through these digital security trainings, which are worthwhile in that … Like if you're in the airport and say you're not using your pass on your phone or something, which I know a lot of people do, is turning off your phone actually makes it much harder to search than just like airplane mode.
So if you have any sort of risk and you can just turn off your phone when you're going through security, sometimes when they're patting you down, they'll take the phone in the back. If it's off, it's less easy to open. I think, too I'm very like, work versus personal device. You don't have to have a trillion burner phones, but if you do anything, if you're an attorney, you should have a separate device and you should leave it now when you're crossing the border.
BJ Mendelson: And so just the last point of that, one of the things we've advised, and I'm just curious to get your feedback on it, is before you go to the airport, upload anything you need to, let's say, Proton Drive, and then wipe the device, and then turn it off. Then when you get, wherever you're going, you could just download everything from Proton and then wipe it again before you go back. Does that sound along the lines of what might be recommended?
Rebecca Williams: Yeah, absolutely. I think… All those little things too, like even if you're not wiping the full device, like there's legal and less legal or not legal ways that somebody, once they physically have your device, can look through your phone. So it's even like, uh … do you have an Instagram account? If you've deleted it from your phone, they can't see it when they have your phone. So like. yeah, wipe everything, but also just like the more you can wipe when you're doing that sort of travel, if they have access to it, they won't see anything.
BJ: Mendelson: We're out of time. I feel like I have a million more questions for you. But where can we find you? I know you have a newsletter. Tell us about the newsletter real quick. How can we find you online?
Rebecca Williams: Yeah. So I'm probably most active on Blue Sky.
I also have a budding newsletter that I don't put out very often, but I have a lot of ambition to put out. It's called Tech Shadow Work, where we talk about how one of the things you can learn from tech policy is what's going on with our culture and politics more broadly. It's less about tech, it's more about the world. RebeccaWilliams.info is the newsletter and my Blue Sky handle. And yeah, everything's linked there.
Live Read #8: DuckDuckGo Subscription 2
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Stupid Sexy Privacy Outro
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